04-5-2011 at 4:17 AM

No matter how you try to sugar coat it, you ARE an irresponsible cat owner<br /> <br /> No im not, i love my cat, it gets its shots, its fixed and it goes outside because it likes it. hes also microchiped so if he IS picked up by the shelter he will be returned, and i live in the city, no cyotes here. as for dogs my cat can climb a tree, a dog can't. Fact is people tend to forget just how recorceful a cat is. <br /> <br /> and i dont care how meny people tell me letting my cat out is wrong, theres no way thats possible. you've tryed the bird thing with the .683 thats 1 bird out of the 6830 dead birds killed that died by a cat, not a staggering amount. <br /> <br /> <br /> here is a simple way to fix that. Water and a little bit of vinegar in a squirt bottle. That'll shut the cat right up and it'll learn not to do that really fast.<br /> <br /> yeah thats sounds like something a loveing pet owner would do..not just let the cat who you KNOW has never had a issue in the 5 years of life on this planet outside for a wile. <br /> <br /> Cats belong outside and inside in my opinion. They like being outside, they need to go outside. every bone in there beeing screams to go out.

04-5-2011 at 3:23 AM

I have to say I agree with Nathaniel.<br /> <br /> I feel that none of my posts were rude. If I had one that was rude please point it out.<br /> <br /> If being blunt and honest is rude I'm guilty as charged. =/<br /> <br /> I also agree with Hempdog. I'd never let any of my animals roam free. You do not know where they are, you have no control over what happens to them. <br /> <br /> At home you can supervise them.<br />

04-5-2011 at 3:09 AM

I would like to point out something that was said earlier but I did not feel like replying to:<br><br><i>"Typically, baby wild birds will be knocked out of their nest by a fellow nest-mate"</i><br>What is meant by this, is other baby birds will move around their nest and push each other. They do not push each other out to "make room", they push each other around just by moving about the nest. Some birds might topple out, but the siblings are not malicious and intend to push each other out.<br>That is the last I will say on this subject though.

04-5-2011 at 12:39 AM

Firstly, I just want to say that I don't believe I have been overly rude or uncivil in any way throughout this thread. Just because I'm not sweetening my words doesn't make them rude. I was defending my points, with citations where needed, and yes...my wording was often a little harsh.<br /> However, this is a <i>debate forum</i>. I was trying to convince the people arguing the other side that they were wrong, not powder their bottoms. If I wanted to talk to others about a topic that wouldn't get at all heated, I would go to general discussion.<br /> <br /> I don't like the vague, all-encompassing threat sound of what was posted, given that I don't know what is now considered inappropriately harsh or rude. If specifics are not given, I have no idea how to reply...so I'll no longer be posting in this thread.<br /> <br /> I'll also be taking this up with a mod via issue hub, but I felt this needed to be stated here, where it was relevant.

04-4-2011 at 8:18 PM

<b>Ok everyone, this thread is getting a little ridiculous. If it does not mature and civil up I will be dealing with EVERYONE involved from this post forward. Everyone has their opinion and neither side, it seems, is going to convince the other otherwise. Everyone needs to calm down, step away from the topic for a while and just leave it alone.<br /> <br /> <br /> This is your ONE AND ONLY WARNING since this isn't the only topic that has gotten out of hand. No posting from now on won't get you punished but think about what you've typed before you press the reply button because HOW you word it and WHAT you say may. </b>

04-4-2011 at 8:01 PM

I reread a lot of these posts, and I have to say that those of you who have continued to try and preach some sense have more patience than I. Massive amounts of respect.<br /> <br /> Also, Jambers, your entire demeanor and all your posts to Celestial on this page are immature and childish. Just because you get the last word doesn't mean you win, and you should show a little more respect for those honestly trying to help your cat.

04-4-2011 at 7:02 PM

Not once have I had a cat get into indoor danger and I haven't known any cats who have. I <b>have</b> found numerous dead cats either on the road/on my driveway or under my porch though.<br><br>EDIT: not to mention, my cat was fine indoors but snuck out one night and got in a fight in my driveway... a couple times. Just because someone doesn't SEE their cat fighting, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I've heard a cat fight outside and shrugged it off, thinking it was two stray cats, only to find my cat on the porch in the morning with a lil cut on his face.

04-4-2011 at 6:41 PM

Jambers - No matter how you try to sugar coat it, you ARE an irresponsible cat owner. People have told you repeatedly why it's a bad idea, and you have plugged your ears going "LALALA" or tried to make up some ridiculous excuse to try and justify yourself. I have a neighbor who has claimed every single thing that you have in this thread and continued to leave her cat outside. Guess what? It's now a sailcat on the side of the highway. I have another neighbor who left her young cat outside, and it got inside someone's car engine because it liked how warm it was. It was a really disgusting mess when the owner tried to start their vehicle later. There was almost nothing left of the cat to even identify who it belonged too. Do I feel bad for either of the owners? Not one bit. (Though I do feel bad for the cats.)<br /> <br /> You cannot and do not see what your cat does when it is outside. It COULD be getting on roads, chased by dogs, eaten by coyotes, fights with stray cats, eating something with diseases, hurt by mean kids, you name it. Heck, a person can even get annoyed seeing the cat wandering and call animal control OR poison or shoot the cat themselves. What if he climbs onto a power pole and get electrocuted? NONE of these dangers are found inside the home. You claim there are poisons inside the home, but a RESPONSIBLE owner would NOT leave them where the cat can get too them like in a locked cabinet or room. Cat eating trash? Get a trash can that you step on and the lid opens. It's really not hard to be responsible, you just have to make little changes here and there. <br /> <br />"My dog does not go outside WITHOUT a leash on, she is under supervishion at all times, if i am not here she is in the full sized basement down stairs...." A comment you posted in <a href="http://www.alacritysim.com/forums.php?boardid=6379&category=Debate&s=20&np=2">this thread</a>.<br /> <br /> Why is it not okay for the dog to go outside unsupervised but it is for the cat?<br /> <br /> You also mentioned somewhere that your cat screams if you won't let it outside. There is a simple way to fix that. Water and a little bit of vinegar in a squirt bottle. That'll shut the cat right up and it'll learn not to do that really fast.<br /> <br /> Please, for the sake of your cat, listen to what everyone here is telling you. They are just concerned for his/her wellbeing. <br /> <br /> Edit: Woo, you guys posted a bunch of things while I was typing this up. *goes back to read*<br /> <br /> Edit 2: Celestial88 that is an awesome link, and covered things I didn't even know about. The pets getting stolen for dissection and sexual abuse is awful. :&lt;

04-4-2011 at 11:35 AM

Well your vet would say that because accidents with outdoor cats are rarely taken to the vet. The veterinarian is not where you'd find statistics on such thing.<br /> <br /> And I didn't say feline specific diseases, diseases in general. <br /> <br /> <br /> My dog really likes to run loose too, he's unhappy if he can't, he'll act like it's ruining his life when he sees another dog running off leash. But I'm not going to let him off leash just because of that, animals don't have reasoning skills, and don't understand what's dangerous to them.<br /> <br /> That's where being responsible comes in, you have to decide what is safe for your animals and what isn't. Not them.<br /> <br /> An outdoor cat's life on average is far shorter than an indoor cat's.<br /> <br /> <br /> http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/indoors-or-outdoors/<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> Edit: I said rarely taken in because you don't know where outdoor cats are 100% of the time. You should see how many lost reports go through our shelter and the percentage of owners being reunited (RTO) is very small. :(<br /> I remember my first day of job shadowing, 23 people came in that one day to report lost cats alone. And the staff members told me that is a low number for the usual.

04-4-2011 at 11:13 AM

Maybe it's different around the area you live in, but in my area there are not many cats who are hit by cars, and it's very rare for one to be attacked by a dog. I've talked to different vets, and they see more cases of cats that had an accident indoors. Outdoor accidents may be more dangerous, but indoor accidents seem to be more frequent and have just as bad consequences near my house.<br /> <br /> For what you said here: "Your cat won't be miserable if you spend the time entertaining it everyday, exercising, providing stimulation. Even if a cat was miserable for not being outside...You could have not let it out in the first place." This is not true for my cats. I mentioned before that they showed up as strays, so they had been wild and living outside before we even found them, and since they know what it's like outside, they're never truly happy indoors. Besides, indoors they hate the noise and constant commotion of my family and anything that makes loud noises (vacuum, toys, even the TV occassionally) and playing with them or attempting to exercise them would do no good.<br /> <br /> In some cases that would work very well, such as it seems to be with your cat. Exercising them and not letting them outside, but it's not for everyone.<br /> <br /> Vaccinations - I'm pretty sure that they do cover most common feline diseases, but I'll do a little research later today to double check. :)<br /> <br /> I do understand you point though. I've seen many debates like the link you posted too. I just don't agree that EVERY single cat should be strictly an indoor cat. For many being an indoor cat would be safer, but for many others, the cats are better off being able to go outside as long as their owners are responsible in their care for them.

04-4-2011 at 10:51 AM

<br /> <a href="http://www.petplace.com/cats/the-great-debate-indoor-versus-outdoor-cats/page1.aspx">Informational Link, "The Great Indoor Outdoor Debate"</a>

04-4-2011 at 10:32 AM

Actually more cats are killed by cars, dogs, and humans outside the house is more common than inside accidents. At least according to every single animal shelter I've spoke to, whom is called sooo many times everyday to pick up cats that have been ran over.<br /> <br /> Just out of curiosity, where did you find that more cats die from being inside? <br /> <br /> <br /> If you have allergies to a cat, and can't keep inside...Don't have one.<br /> <br /> Your cat won't be miserable if you spend the time entertaining it everyday, exercising, providing stimulation. <br /> <br /> Even if a cat was miserable for not being outside...You could have not let it out in the first place.<br /> <br /> Vaccinations do not cover the majority of diseases from wildlife.<br /> <br /> Even if both inside and outside is dangerous. Being outside has been proven to be more dangerous by the number of dead animals found from such things as mentioned before.<br /> <br /> Why choose the one with a higher likelihood of death?

04-4-2011 at 10:19 AM

I don't want to offend some of you, but your debate is sounding really childish.<br /> <br /> No matter what anyone does, their pets will ALWAYS be exposed to dangerous things. Indoors, cats can get themselves into HUNDREDS dangerous situations, just like they can outside. In fact, I actually think it can be more dangerous inside a house. A cat being hit by a car, or attacked by dogs or by humans is far less common than being killed or hurt by an accident inside the house.<br /> <br /> I have both outside cats and one inside cat. All of my cats (except for one) showed up as strays, and we fed them and they never left. Some stay in the barn at night, while others in the garage. They are free to roam all day, but they never wander far and are smart enough to stay out of the road. My family has had debates on whether or not to make all of our cats strictly indoor cats, but, like many people out there that's just not possible. Lots of people I know CAN'T keep their cats inside, whether it's due to allergies or some other problem. And although it's a great idea, most cat owners would never be able to build an enclosed area outside for their cats, nor would they have time to fight with their cats to try to take them out for a walk. It's just not possible for everyone to keep their cat indoors.<br /> <br /> As for cats killing too many birds or rodents, where I live, this is not a problem. My cats can rarely catch a bird, but they do keep the mice away. And, if a cat does catch a bird, then they'll kill it. They won't leave it alive or let it suffer for long. That's just not how cats are. As for cats getting diseases from what they hunt, it can happen. Wildlife can carry some nasty things and that is why I don't like it when my cats eat those things, but that is exactly why you should vaccinate and deworm your cat. However, if you're talking about pet cats who are fed regularly, then half the time they won't even eat what they catch.<br /> <br /> I really don't think that this is a 100% fair debate. Every cat and every owner are different. Some love their cats more than anything else in the whole world. Some owners really don't even deserve to own their pet. Some people are more responsible than others and some people are just learning what it's like to own a cat. All of those factors play a role on whether a cat is better off inside or outside. Three of my cats for example wouldn't survive in the house - well, yes they would, but they'd be miserable - while my other three enjoy staying inside and going out when they please. You can't just judge every situation the same.<br /> <br /> I guess I'm just saying that I have nothing against keeping outdoor cats. Some people never have problems with doing so.

04-4-2011 at 10:14 AM

How immature, sorry I'm done.

04-4-2011 at 9:49 AM

I don't have a dresser in my room. And there are no electrical cords in my room. They're all in the living room and my grandmother's bedroom. <br /> <br /> That sounds like a very nice jail cell. do you have a bed in your room?

04-4-2011 at 9:44 AM

I don't have a dresser in my room. And there are no electrical cords in my room. They're all in the living room and my grandmother's bedroom. <br /> If the cats are in the living room, they're being supervised. And they aren't allowed in my grandmother's room.<br /> <br /> <br /> Nope no grapes. And there is bacteria on everything, not all bacteria is bad.<br /> <br /> We wash our hands after every meal, so uhm none other than what comes from normal everyday surfaces and your own body. Nothing dangerous.<br /> <br /> Don't assume things, assumption gets you nowhere.

04-4-2011 at 9:26 AM

Also we don't eat food with bacteria<br /> <br /> how do you know? do you eat grapes? how much bacteria is on your hands right now? <br /> <br /> They sleep with me at night, nothing dangerous to them is in my bedroom.<br /> <br /> yeah acculy there is, electrical cords, electric sockets, dressers falling on them. i count those as dangers.

04-4-2011 at 9:18 AM

Sigh I break my own rules.<br /> <br /> I told you this already...I DO NOT allow my cats to be exposed to dangerous things. They sleep with me at night, nothing dangerous to them is in my bedroom.<br /> <br /> Also we don't eat food with bacteria, we rarely eat meat, even if my parents get meat they freeze it for a week first.<br /> <br /> And stop going off topic -_- this isn't about deer hunting. Besides, that's to cull overpopulation. Whilst the other argument was detrimental to population numbers.

04-4-2011 at 9:12 AM

It's pointless and uneccessary. Why expose your animal to something that could kill it?<br /> <br /> Even in the home a cat is likely to die from being poisend, its a fact. Garbage in you home at night you cat can get into that bacteria on the food. once again indangering your cat, lets just go ahead and build cat clean rooms, well put oon those white jump suits before we walk in to make shure its absolutly safe.<br /> <br /> Why would you kill just because it tastes good? <br /> <br /> acculy even though its retorical im going to ancwer. hunting in michigan has to be done because the deer population is out of control. there even considering EXTENDING the deer season by a few months because of the current population, and yes deer meat does tast good, i like it best in meatloaf.

04-4-2011 at 8:55 AM

Sorry, gone too far into the "immature" category for me.<br /> <br /> It's pointless and uneccessary. Why expose your animal to something that could kill it?<br /> <br /> Why would you kill just because it tastes good? <br /> <br /> Retorical by the way.