04-5-2011 at 8:59 PM

"Really??? You cant see how that website is biased? WOW"<br /> "No I can't. Please explain to me how it is biased."<br /> <br /> You have got to be kidding me right, Really?? <br /> <br /> and no im not talking about the ehow link although they DO ecco what the vet website says im speeking of the vet website itself, about the part where they cover what can cause stress, or you can even look at the link to the disease itself, like this part <br /> "indoor housed cats appear to accommodate to a wide range of surroundings, the neuroendocrine abnormalities in the cats we treat do not seem to permit them the adaptive capacity that healthy cats have"

04-5-2011 at 8:52 PM

<i>"Really??? You cant see how that website is biased? WOW"</i><br>No I can't. Please explain to me how it is biased.<br><br>"<i>Oh now a vet website is wrong too... funny i thought they studyed this stuff for a liveing.</i>"<br>I assume you're talking about that eHow link? eHow isn't a vet website. Also, that <i>"Feline Interstitial Cystitis"</i> vet website link has absolutely nothing to do with indoor/outdoor cats or cats being stressed because they can't get outside.

04-5-2011 at 8:47 PM

"Er... how is that site biased?"<br /> <br /> Really??? You cant see how that website is biased? WOW<br /> <br /> "Probably because "your cat will get stress diseases because it can't get that bird outside the window!!" is bull."<br /> <br /> Oh now a vet website is wrong too... funny i thought they studyed this stuff for a liveing.<br /> <br />

04-5-2011 at 8:40 PM

Er... how is that site biased?<br><br><i>"WOW they wont even put up things about stress eather...funny, and thease are the sites that are "reputable websites"??"</i><br>Probably because "your cat will get stress diseases because it can't get that bird outside the window!!" is bull.<br><br><i>"Although many indoor housed cats appear to accommodate to a wide range of surroundings, the neuroendocrine abnormalities in the cats we treat do not seem to permit them the adaptive capacity that healthy cats have. Moreover, since external factors have been shown to unmask susceptibility to many common chronic diseases in cats"</i><br>That has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. "External" and "internal" does not mean "outdoors and indoors" and "environment" doesn't mean outside the house.<br><br><i>"We may not realize how sensitive your cat is to something as simple as moving furniture around the room or having company over for dinner."</i><br>This is very true, cats pay close attention to detail. However, a gigantic truck driving by or a dog snarling and barking is 10x more stressful then a couch moving a couple feet. <br>Another way cats can get stressed out is during car-rides to the vet or moving to another house.

04-5-2011 at 8:33 PM

<a href="http://fairydogparents.tripod.com/id15.html"> heres a link to what a shelter has to say on indoor/outdoor cats. its funny how they are so biest isnt it? </a> <br /> <br /> a quote from the site "What does your indoor cat miss?<br /> <br /> Problems and an untimely death, mostly. Things like: getting hit by a car, feline leukemia, attacks by dogs, poisoned food, pesticides, cat fights, fleas, ticks, worms, abscesses, injuries, getting lost, getting stolen, human cruelty, wild animal attacks, cold, rainy weather, hunger, thirst."<br /> <br /> WOW they wont even put up things about stress eather...funny, and thease are the sites that are "reputable websites"?? <br /> <br /> Are vet websites allowed?<br /> <br /> "Although many indoor housed cats appear to accommodate to a wide range of surroundings, the neuroendocrine abnormalities in the cats we treat do not seem to permit them the adaptive capacity that healthy cats have. Moreover, since external factors have been shown to unmask susceptibility to many common chronic diseases in cats"<br /> <a href="http://indoorpet.osu.edu/veterinarians/research/index.cfm"> Click if its allowed</a><br /> <br /> Also heres a nother one on what can stress your cat out. <br /> <a href="http://indoorpet.osu.edu/cats/felinelifestressors/index.cfm"> better not have people come over for dinner..</a>

04-5-2011 at 8:20 PM

<i>"The ancwer to that is Quite simple and im suprized you didnt think of it before posting, its the LAW."</i><br /> <br /> You are correct. It is also illegal to let your cat roam the streets. In fact a lot of animal control officers will actually fine you if you allow your animal to roam. If a neighbor complains about your cat constantly getting on their property, animal control will fine you for that too. If it happens too often, they can take your pet away completely.<br /> <br /> <i>"You all failed to even menchion anything about the stress related diseases. The fact indoor cats have poor Diets, both in obesidy and in the loss of vegitashion for indoor cats that outdoor cats get."</i><br /> <br /> This is very easily preventable with proper diet and mental stimulation, which is again, the responsibility of the owner.<br /> <br /> <i>"The fact that you compleatly ignore all the health risks indoor cats face as well says a lot about you as a pet owner as well"</i><br /> <br /> I never ignored them. They happen when a cat is not properly taken care of, there are just much WORSE things that could happen to your cat if left outside. And for the record, I am not a poor pet owner. I don't have cats because I have no way of properly caring for them where I live. :) That's where being responsible comes in handy. If you can't take care of the animal, don't have it.<br /> <br /> <i>"I do not hoard animals or fight them, i simply let them out side my home because im not scaird to death something one day maybe might happen."</i><br /> <br /> My point was you use the exact same excuses they do, and think you are doing the right thing. Exactly like they think they are doing.<br /> <br /> <i>"i do believe it IS lazyness to spay /nueter a pet simply so you dont have to watch them. However i ALSO said that i did not start out with my pets, i got them off of Craigs list, they came spayed/nuetered, not my choice but there previous owners."</i><br /> <br /> That doesn't make a difference. You still have a spayed/nuetered animal and are being too lazy to watch it. What you said was still contradictory.<br /> <br /> At this point I am done arguing with you. You refuse to accept all the facts and proof that people have pointed out and you continue on trying to justify your ridiculous actions. I think it's pretty obvious to me, and many other people here, exactly what type of pet owner you are and the fact that you have no intentions of ever changing. Have a nice day and if I see you ever complain on here about your cat getting killed, I will be one of the first to say "I told you so! "<br /> <br /> Oh, and the name is HEMPdog not himpdog.

04-5-2011 at 8:18 PM

"<i>Yet you are willing to take that chance with your cats health, because you wont let your cat out. I dont know about you guys, but "inflammation within the urinary bladder resulting in bloody urine, inappropriate urination and pain and discomfort " That dosent sound like something i would want my cat to get, how do i ovoid them getting it? i let them out when they want out.</i>"<br>Where are you getting that information? Those are the symptoms to urinary tract infections in cats and I don't see what that has to do with what we're talking about.<br><br><i>Indoor cats cannot graze on grasses and greens that outdoor cats can access. Outdoor cats also get vegetable matter through the stomach and intestinal contents of the herbivores they catch and eat.</i><br>The main word here is "graze". Cats will graze on grass if they have an upset stomach, so will dogs. This is to induce vomiting so they can barf up whatever is making them sick. If cats are omnivores, please do a little experiment for me.<br>Find some stray cats and throw a stick of celery at them. Tell me if they eat it. Then throw some chicken at them and see if they eat it. Cats will not willingly eat vegetables as their whole diet - the only reason they do right now is because the pet food companies shove things like cornmeal and wheat into dry pet food.<br><br><i>"Also stress can be caused by a change in your everyday life, say you go to school every day from 8am to 2:45pm then summer comes now your at home all the time, this can stress your cat out."</i><br>That has NOTHING to do with cats not being allowed outside. That is Seperation Anxiety Disorder, and it is also seen in dogs. It is NOT CAUSED by a cat seeing a bird outside the window and not getting it. That's just mindbogglingly ridiculous.<br><br><b>And again, please provide links that aren't supplied by "eHow", "Yahoo Answers", "Chacha", etc

04-5-2011 at 8:10 PM

"My cats do not have any stress diseases and I've never ever known a cat who did."<br /> <br /> Yet you are willing to take that chance with your cats health, because you wont let your cat out. I dont know about you guys, but "inflammation within the urinary bladder resulting in bloody urine, inappropriate urination and pain and discomfort " That dosent sound like something i would want my cat to get, how do i ovoid them getting it? i let them out when they want out. <br /> <br /> "Also, cats are carnivores and don't eat vegetation."<br /> <br /> sorry wrong.<br /> Indoor cats cannot graze on grasses and greens that outdoor cats can access. Outdoor cats also get vegetable matter through the stomach and intestinal contents of the herbivores they catch and eat.<br /> <a href="http://www.ehow.com/list_6901767_different-issues-indoor-outdoor-cats.html"> Clicky for the link i alredy gave on this subject </a><br /> <br /> Also stress can be caused by a change in your everyday life, say you go to school every day from 8am to 2:45pm then summer comes now your at home all the time, this can stress your cat out. <br /> <br /> EDIT:<br /> "Also, if you want to link to info about cats and indoor/outdoor, link to reputable websites, not things like eHow or Yahoo Answers or w.e. I'm looking for links like the ASPCA or Humane Society or vet websites."<br /> <br /> Oh you meen only the websites that agree with you should be taken into considerashion..

04-5-2011 at 8:06 PM

<i>"The ancwer to that is Quite simple and im suprized you didnt think of it before posting, its the LAW."</i><br /> <br /> You are correct. It is also illegal to let your cat roam the streets. In fact a lot of animal control officers will actually fine you if you allow your animal to roam. If a neighbor complains about your cat constantly getting on their property, animal control will fine you for that too. If it happens too often, they can take your pet away completely.<br /> <br /> <i>"You all failed to even menchion anything about the stress related diseases. The fact indoor cats have poor Diets, both in obesidy and in the loss of vegitashion for indoor cats that outdoor cats get."</i><br /> <br /> This is very easily preventable with proper diet and mental stimulation, which is again, the responsibility of the owner.<br /> <br /> <i>"The fact that you compleatly ignore all the health risks indoor cats face as well says a lot about you as a pet owner as well"</i><br /> <br /> I never ignored them. They happen when a cat is not properly taken care of, there are just much WORSE things that could happen to your cat if left outside. And for the record, I am not a poor pet owner. I don't have cats because I have no way of properly caring for them where I live. :) That's where being responsible comes in handy. If you can't take care of the animal, don't have it.<br /> <br /> <i>"I do not hoard animals or fight them, i simply let them out side my home because im not scaird to death something one day maybe might happen."</i><br /> <br /> My point was you use the exact same excuses they do, and think you are doing the right thing. Exactly like they think they are doing.<br /> <br /> <i>"i do believe it IS lazyness to spay /nueter a pet simply so you dont have to watch them. However i ALSO said that i did not start out with my pets, i got them off of Craigs list, they came spayed/nuetered, not my choice but there previous owners."</i><br /> <br /> That doesn't make a difference. You still have a spayed/nuetered animal and are being too lazy to watch it. What you said was still contradictory.<br /> <br /> At this point I am done arguing with you. You refuse to accept all the facts and proof that people have pointed out and you continue on trying to justify your ridiculous actions. I think it's pretty obvious to me, and many other people here, exactly what type of pet owner you are and the fact that you have no intentions of ever changing. Have a nice day and if I see you ever complain on here about your cat getting killed, I will be one of the first to say "I told you so! "<br /> <br /> Oh, and the name is HEMPdog not himpdog.

04-5-2011 at 7:52 PM

<i>"The ancwer to that is Quite simple and im suprized you didnt think of it before posting, its the LAW."</i><br>It's also the law to tag and keep your cats indoors.<br><br><i>"You all failed to even menchion anything about the stress related diseases. The fact indoor cats have poor Diets, both in obesidy and in the loss of vegitashion for indoor cats that outdoor cats get. "</i><br>You know how you can avoid those problems?...... Not feeding your cat human food and not overfeeding it. My cats are indoors, they're around 12 y.o and they're still energetic as ever and aren't obese. Also, cats are carnivores and don't eat vegetation. When cats nibble on grass it's because they have an upset stomach. My cats do not have any stress diseases and I've never ever known a cat who did.<br><br><i>"your cat can become very ill from that stress"</i><br>A cat cannot become sick from stress by looking at a bird outside. Stress related illnesses are things like PTSD. Dogs who served in the wars sometimes come back with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. "Ohh I can't get that bird :(" is NOTHING like PTSD.<br><b>Definition of PTSD:</b> <i>Post-traumatic stress disorder is a type of anxiety disorder. It can occur after you've seen or experienced a traumatic event that involved the threat of injury or death.</i><br>People develop PTSD as well.. "PTSD can occur at any age and can follow a natural disaster such as <b>a flood or fire, or events such as war, a prison stay, assault, domestic abuse, or rape</b>. The <b>terrorist attacks</b> of September 11, 2001, in the United States may have caused PTSD in some people who were involved, in people who saw the disaster, and in people who lost relatives and friends. These kinds of events can produce stress in anyone, but not everyone develops PTSD."<br>To say "your cat can get stress diseases from looking at birds!" Is extremely insulting to people like me who DO HAVE PTSD because it downplays the whole disorder.<br><br>Also, if you want to link to info about cats and indoor/outdoor, link to reputable websites, not things like eHow or Yahoo Answers or w.e. I'm looking for links like the ASPCA or Humane Society or vet websites.

04-5-2011 at 7:45 PM

Again, why is it okay for your cat to go outside unsupervised but not your dog?<br /> <br /> The ancwer to that is Quite simple and im suprized you didnt think of it before posting, its the LAW.<br /> <br /> You all failed to even menchion anything about the stress related diseases. The fact indoor cats have poor Diets, both in obesidy and in the loss of vegitashion for indoor cats that outdoor cats get. <br /> <br /> @ himpDog<br /> "The fact that you are blatantly ignoring all the facts and proof about why it is a bad idea to let your cat out says tons about you as a pet owner."<br /> <br /> The fact that you compleatly ignore all the health risks indoor cats face as well says a lot about you as a pet owner as well. A indoor cat can get stressed out by something as simple as looking out a window and seeing other animals outside, and yet you are ok with putting your cat threw that stress because you believe its "the right way to do" your cat can become very ill from that stress, and acording to you, thats ok because at least (in your opinion) hes safe. <br /> <br /> I have seen tons of animal hoarders and dog fighters also claim that they are responsible and "just doing what the animal wants!"<br /> <br /> I do not hoard animals or fight them, i simply let them out side my home because im not scaird to death something one day maybe might happen.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> "I don't know why we're arguing whether indoor or outdoor is safer for a cat. It's just nonsense."<br /> <br /> because its NOT nonsense, once again fell free to see my last post and read about the health related diseases indoor cats get. Or about the poor diets, or about obesidy witch puts more presshure on the joints of a cat.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> You claimed that spaying/nuetering your pets is not responsible because it's "lazy" and that you should just watch them like a hawk.<br /> <br /> i do believe it IS lazyness to spay /nueter a pet simply so you dont have to watch them. However i ALSO said that i did not start out with my pets, i got them off of Craigs list, they came spayed/nuetered, not my choice but there previous owners.

04-5-2011 at 7:17 PM

I don't know why we're arguing whether indoor or outdoor is safer for a cat. It's just nonsense IMO.<br>Indoor:<br>- Your cat might get into cleaning chemicals if you leave them sitting around, cap off, within reach of the cat [lol what], but that isn't an issue at all if you have baby locks on your cupboards.<br>- Your cat may choke on a chicken bone, but not if you dispose of it properly in the garbage pail<br>- Your cat may eat a poisonous house plant, but not if you know which plants to look out for.<br>- Your cat may eat food that is poisonous to cats, but not if you don't leave food laying around for it to eat.<br>- Your cat might eat a poisonous mouse, but not if you keep snaptraps high up on shelves where your cat won't wander, or if you buy safe, metal traps.<br><br>Outdoor:<br>- Your cat can easily lick up cleaning chemicals and someone can easily poison your cat [Seen it happen to stray cats here]<br>- Your cat can choke on a chicken bone, digging through someones garbage bags put outside [seen it happen with stray cats. They also drag my garbage all over the sidewalk]<br>- Your cat is within reach of PLENTY of dangerous plants outside<br>- Your cat can eat poisonous food walking around, in peoples garbage.<br>- Your cat can easily, EASILY get tapeworms, hookworms, fleas, ticks, and other diseases from catching mice and birds [seen it happen to an uncles cat and dog. They can't get rid of the tapeworms because he won't stop letting the cat roam]<br>- Your cat is at risk of being hit by a car<br>- Your cat is at risk of getting into fights with strays and other small animals<br>- Your cat is at risk of being eaten by a hawk or coyote<br>- Your cat is at risk of being mauled by someones dog<br>- Your cat is at risk of being target practice for kids<br><br><b>EDIT:</b> I currently live in Windsor, Ontario. <a href=http://www.phototravelpages.com/canada/ontario_photos/windsor.jpg rel=nofollow>This place</a>. Yep. No coyotes right? Wrong. I've seen coyotes and foxes roaming the streets. My dads friend also had all his outdoor cats eaten by coyotes.

04-5-2011 at 5:00 PM

-Nathaniel<br /> Very well said!<br /> <br /> -Kenoth<br /> <i>"& vinegar + spraybottle method is extremely cruel. Vinegar is acidic. Spray it in your eyes & mouth and then tell me how humane that method is."</i><br /> <br /> You only want to use one part vinegar and ten parts water, just enough to give it that nasty vinegar smell. Never ever use pure vinegar and never spray it in the animals face either. Usually the smell and the cold squirt on the hips or back is enough to get a cat to stop meowing. <br /> <br /> Jambers-<br /> </i>"...i live in the city, no cyotes here. as for dogs my cat can climb a tree, a dog can't. Fact is people tend to forget just how recorceful a cat is."</i><br /> <br /> Uh, coyotes live in the city and you are only fooling yourself if you don't believe that. In fact they tend to thrive there... by eating small pets and trash. They run a whole lot faster than a cat does, so whether or not your cat can climb a tree won't matter if a coyote (or other dog) has the cat in it's mouth before it gets to that tree. Go check out <a href="http://www.projectcoyote.org">Project Coyote</a> as they have lots of information on that.<br /> <br /> <i>"Cats belong outside and inside in my opinion. They like being outside, they need to go outside. every bone in there beeing screams to go out.</i>"<br /> <br /> My dog constantly wants to run across a huge and busy highway to go see other dogs. Should I let him do that because "every bone in his being screams to go?" Absolutely not. It's like letting your child stick their finger in a blender while it's on because "every bone in their being screams to do it!" <br /> <br /> You also failed to answer something from my previous post.<br /> <br /> <i>""My dog does not go outside WITHOUT a leash on, she is under supervishion at all times, if i am not here she is in the full sized basement down stairs...."</i>A comment you posted in <a href="http://www.alacritysim.com/forums.php?boardid=6379&category=Debate&s=20&np=2">this thread</a>.<br /> <br /> Again, why is it okay for your cat to go outside unsupervised but not your dog?<br /> <br /> I also noticed something else in that same thread. You claimed that spaying/nuetering your pets is not responsible because it's "lazy" and that you should just watch them like a hawk. Yet here you are saying you ARE responsible because your pets are fixed and you don't watch them like a hawk. Which is it? <br /> <br /> The fact that you are blatantly ignoring all the facts and proof about why it is a bad idea to let your cat out says tons about you as a pet owner. (As does the thread on the breeding debate.) Just because you say "I'M RESPONSIBLE" over and over again does not make it true. I have seen tons of animal hoarders and dog fighters also claim that they are responsible and "just doing what the animal wants!" Tons of people here have pointed out what you are doing wrong, if you chose to do nothing at this point then it's your own fault when something finally does happen to your cat(s).

04-5-2011 at 8:53 AM

It broke a back leg, but took off running. I tried to follow it but it was too fast.<br /> <br /> How do you know it broke its leg if it took off running? You said yourself you couldn't get it, wouldn't a vet be able to tell better if a animal HAD broken its leg? expicaly from such a distence that you could not get to it can you be shure it did? <br /> <br /> my Chihuahua Gueta (before she died) we thought she broke her leg at one point because she fell down the steps, she missed a step and toppled down the rest of them, come to find out it was a frog in her leg after takeing her to the vet, he said she would be fine in a few days (the emergency bill however took a few weeks to pay off lol) but just as the vet said she favored the one leg over the other for a day, the next day small limp, the day after perfectly fine. <br /> <br /> EDIT<br /> Also Indoor cats are known to have a poor diet and more behavior problems than outdoor cats.<br /> <br /> <a href=http://www.ehow.com/list_6901767_different-issues-indoor-outdoor-cats.html"> clicky for a link to where i got the information, i acculy find it really interesting. </a> the Cat diseases shows that the outdoor cat can be vaccinated for that. also this part i think is relivent as well, "Indoor cats can be injured by things such as electrical or gas appliances, harmful household substances, poisonous houseplants or household chemicals, sharp or harmful household items, and other family pets."<br /> <br /> Also Indoor cats seem to get more stressed out from being cooped up inside than cats going outside, ever heard of Feline interstitial idiopathic cystitis? (and no i didnt make that up, its a disease that happends a lot more with indoor cats than outdoor cats) "This disease causes inflammation within the urinary bladder resulting in bloody urine, inappropriate urination (urinating outside of the litter box) and pain and discomfort. This form of feline cystitis has been linked to stress in cats and this is only one of the stress-related physical diseases seen in indoor cats." Also cats that are strickly indoors have more stress than outdoor cats. <br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.pet-health-care-gazette.com/2010/01/22/indoor-vs-outdoor-cats-should-you-keep-your-cat-indoors-or-outdoors/"> CLICKY </a>

04-5-2011 at 8:44 AM

Here I'll put it in simple words.<br /> <br /> The cons of being an outside cat, the risks, vastly outnumber the risks of being indoors.<br /> <br /> And the cat doesn't need to be surprised or ill to fall from a tree...I've seen it with my own eyes. >_&lt; A cat was in the tree next to our street, I was out front cleaning out my leopard gecko's reptile grass and I saw the cat inching down then take off. <br /> It broke a back leg, but took off running. I tried to follow it but it was too fast. None of the neighbors recognized the description. =/

04-5-2011 at 8:29 AM

yeah, i meen its not like an animal can be truely safe anywhere, but things are much less likely to freak a cat out so badly wile sitting in a tree don't you think? i meen on a sofa a child could jump onto it screaming scairing the cat, makeing it fall off and break its leg. wile in a tree, a cat could see it comming do to the fact that theres not a large area the cat cant see, like there is on a sofa, AKA the back of the sofa itself, acts like a large wall to a cat.

04-5-2011 at 8:12 AM

I was saying "No, no, no they can't" to twisting on a long drop. Sorry I should have made myself clear. <br /> <br /> "It seems like broken bones are something that many pets (and kids) go through at some point in their lives. It can be something as simple as falling off the couch or as severe as being hit by a car"<br /> <br /> <br /> Well a break is a break, so that last part makes sense. I know animals can break their legs from falling off the couch....I've seen a Chihuahua break both front legs jumping off a low couch. <br /> Poor thing was bred so poorly, his bones were very thin.

04-5-2011 at 8:06 AM

No, no they can't. Falling from a sofa, that's a short distance<br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.pets.ca/dogs/articles/broken-bones-in-cats-and-dogs/"> yes acculy they can"</a><br /> "It seems like broken bones are something that many pets (and kids) go through at some point in their lives. It can be something as simple as falling off the couch or as severe as being hit by a car"<br /> <br /> and from your post, ", if a cat is surprised, sick, disoriented or injured, it is unlikely to be able to adjust its position to land feet-first."

04-5-2011 at 8:00 AM

No, no they can't. Falling from a sofa, that's a short distance.<br /> <br /> A tree is much, much higher.<br /> <br /> And that's not my words, it's the words I took from a site. ;)

04-5-2011 at 7:58 AM

A sofa and a tree are two entirely different things. Please don't bring up something irrelevant. You're not taking in the point of my post. <br /> <br /> yeah i am your saying that cats shouldnt be in trees because they could fall out of them and break something. im not saying it isnt true but even in your own post it says that " Cats are indeed very athletic and agile animals, and they do have a unique instinctive ability to twist themselves around in mid-air to correct their position during a fall."<br /> <br /> now im saying that even though that MAY happen, a cat can just as easley fall off a sofa and break a leg. so being inside isnt any safer than being outside.