01-22-2012 at 5:09 AM

I will start by saying yes there is a cash overflow problem in ala and I saw today how bones have become inflated its the bone inflation that needs to be fixed....... doing most of the trial suggestions will not fix the problems it will only make more problems...<br /> <br /> High Tp dogs will still win and it will actually make it easier to win and cheaper as no need for filler dogs no need for the extra expense and time need to train teams...... having a trial teams actually hurts no-one it actually saves other peoples dogs losses and in ala cash .... <br /> <br /> Most Suggestions are actually hurting the players....<br /> who have worked very hard to get to where they are in game<br /> who have paid actual money for companions, auto feeders rejuvinators to help in trials<br /> Those who have donated to get ahead will be penalized....<br /> <br /> trails at Otis level and over will never run.....<br /> <br /> My suggestion is to be like real races have an entry fee no matter the TP of the dog and make the winner random and have the actual amount of the Trial win fixed and nothing to do with TP of dogs <br /> for example starting at Dogbert<br /> Dogbert level 50ala entry fee <br /> 1st prize 1000<br /> 2nd prize 500<br /> 3nd prize 250<br /> <br /> Toto level 1000ala entry fee <br /> 1st prize 7500<br /> 2nd prize 5000<br /> 3nd prize 2500<br /> <br /> Marley level 1500ala entry fee <br /> 1st prize 10000<br /> 2nd prize 7500<br /> 3nd prize 5000<br /> <br /> Otis level 2000ala entry fee <br /> 1st prize 15000<br /> 2nd prize 10000<br /> 3nd prize 7500<br /> <br /> this way anyone can win and those with energy companions and rejuvinatoers are not penalized for actually working hard to get to where they are...... <br /> maybe also make the 2 entrys per person up to Otis level then free reign.........<br /> <br /> I think the main problem is bones I think that players with them should only be allowed to sell back to ala at the value ala has set, right now its 25k per bone or buy items from peoples shops using bones if bones cannot be auctioned or sold then that will start to control the inflation... <br /> Carolyn

01-22-2012 at 4:33 AM

I run trial teams and I don't make a mass amount of money. =/ <br /> <br /> And if that is the problem, why don't simply limit the number of times a dog can trial each day then? <br /> <br /> Or as discussed, make the different ranges for the trials, so people don't have to team up their dogs in a tempt to run more fair competitions.

01-22-2012 at 4:10 AM

And as Ionic pointed out, as the higher levels already pay out more for the winning dogs, isn't it a good thing for the economy that they don't run that frequently? Wasn't this all about reducing the flow of cash into the community?<br /> <br /> Because caped dogs are so hard to max out meny who have a fully caped dog only run that one dog. its not the "monster dogs" that are doing this its people who fill up trials over and over getting all 3 cash prizes aka trial teams that are making mass amounts of money hand over fist.

01-22-2012 at 3:43 AM

I don't understand what there is not to be liked in the different ranges? Is the only concern that they would not run?<br /> <br /> Maybe implement some kind of boon for the higher level competitors, like exclusive items only won from higher level competitions? Or trophies to show on your user lookup when reaching a certain amount of wins on the last trial levels? There could be different trophy levels (bronze for 10 wins, silver for 50 wins gold for 100 wins, prismatic for 500 wins) and so on. Well, that was just an example. And maybe a shop that you can only access when reaching the highest trophy level, with some cool and expensive items to buy. I'm sure there would be an idea you could build up on and improve to your liking. I'm sure that would be a good motivation to get people to breed for the capped dogs and get more competition to the higher levels. <br /> <br /> And as Ionic pointed out, as the higher levels already pay out more for the winning dogs, isn't it a good thing for the economy that they don't run that frequently? Wasn't this all about reducing the flow of cash into the community?<br /> <br /> I don't know, these where just the thoughts on top of my head right in the morning. xD

01-22-2012 at 1:02 AM

"I do think though, that if TP ranges are implemented, that prize payouts would have to be adjusted per range. For example, a person with a 200 TP dog shouldn't be able to make the same amount per win as someone can with a 15k+ TP dog."<br /> <br /> They currently do not make money based on just wins, but on their TP :3 so a dog with higher TP does make more than a dog with lower TP. It goes by their trial score, which will be higher for high TP dogs<br /> <br /> IF ranges were implemented they would have to be rather large ranges such as 0-3k, 4-6k, 6k+, in order for trials to still manage to run. That's just what I think about it though I personally don't like the idea at all myself *shrugs*<br /> <br /> Or maybe give people the option to make such trials, but leave full range trials as the auto trials.

01-22-2012 at 12:47 AM

Like I said, if TP ranges were implemented, it would have to be done in a way that evened out the numbers of dogs able to enter. It won't work if ranges are slapped down with disregard to how many dogs are actually within those ranges.<br /> <br /> I have never seen a shortage of trials at the Scooby level, but if trial shortages do happen, it is up to us upgraded players to create more trials then right? I've created them before, but haven't really seen a need for them at the lower levels. I know there are many polite players on here, but I'm not willing to assume that everyone will respect a title that reads 'Foundies Only!'. There might need to be something implemented to encourage people to create more trials too if shortages are frequent. The current $50 you get if your trial runs seems a little on the mediocre side to me. From what I can see, there is not a shortage of upgraded players -- so that is not a reason for there not being enough trials.<br /> <br /> I don't believe having less dogs to compete against each other is a punishment. That's like saying NBA basketball players should be allowed to play against high school basketball players because then there will be more people for them to compete against.<br /> <br /> If your dog has high skill, it should be trialing against other dogs of comparative skill. Real competition is not occurring if some of the competitors vastly outrank others in the trial.<br /> <br /> Yes, I suppose there would be a chance that higher level dogs would end up running less often than a lower level dog due to the fact that there are smaller numbers of higher level dogs. But, currently, higher level dogs are able to bring in a LOT more when they place anyway. So I do believe it could still work out. Lower level dogs can trial more frequently, but aren't able to make the same amount per win. Higher level dogs run less frequently, but make more per win.<br /> <br /> I do wonder how many people are not really trialing their dogs much because of how the current trial system is set up. And, if things changed to where dogs were not lumped into the huge categories that they are now, if more people wouldn't start entering their dogs. This would actually result in more competitive opportunities for everyone, since more users would be encouraged to participate with a level playing field.<br /> <br /> Yes, I do look and see what dogs are currently in a trial before I enter. Since I have a lot of foundies though, I usually just team them together in their own trial, or don't run them at all because it's kind of a bother, and I do kind of feel bad about teaming. There really is not much of an alternative though when you're running with foundies. Try running foundies in trials and you will see what I and others are talking about. High level dogs come rolling through all the time. :) I do have a few dogs in the 700s range and they still are frequently beat, or I can't enter them in a trial because they won't place. I'm not willing to enter my dogs in a trial first because that usually reduces my likelihood of winning.<br /> <br /> I do think though, that if TP ranges are implemented, that prize payouts would have to be adjusted per range. For example, a person with a 200 TP dog shouldn't be able to make the same amount per win as someone can with a 15k+ TP dog.<br /> <br /> The current trial system works okay (as in it's working in some capacity), but I do think it could be changed a bit more than just limiting payouts or the amount each dog can run per day. <br /> <br /> Overall,I don't believe implementing a TP range would be a punishment (in addition to some of the suggestions stated in the OP). It's just a different way to handle how trials are currently run.

01-21-2012 at 10:37 PM

If trials where to be seperated by TP though it would be harder and harder to find trials for your dog. Say your dog has 1,500 TP you go to the 1,000-3,000 TP trials. Theres only say 2 or 3 of them because all the trials are now for the lower tp range. More people have the lower TP dogs (not saying its bad its just a fact) That they will be useing in trials. <br /> <br /> People making the trials will make trials according to demand. Why build a 5,000+ TP trial if you have to wate 3 or 4 days before its full? They will make the lower range of TP it will be filled quickly, and they will get there money. <br /> <br /> Doing trials by TP is punishing people for having the high TP even Caped TP dogs because its all about suply and demand. Right now theres complaints because there arnt enough trials in scooby level. Imagon now the trials split up by TP and levels. The numbers would be drasticly reduced. Less and less trials would be run for the larger TP dogs, because there really arnt as meny to ask for more trials in that area. <br /> <br /> No one is forceing low TP dogs to run with high TP dogs eather. They really arnt. Yes i like checking out the competition before entering my dog. I dont mind a 2nd or 3rd place its not a first but still i dont mind it. Do the same thing, check the dogs in the trials. Talk to upgraded members ask them to create a low TP trial for you and your dogs, Most users are curtious they wont enter if it says Foundies only or costomes only. I know i wont. If you want a particuler trial in a particuler rang mail me, ill create it for you. And no im not joking i would be happy to create it if you ask. <br /> <br /> What im asking is you not punish me for working hard on my dogs eather. breaking trials up by TP would more than likely kill off trials for larger TP dogs. I like my larger TP dogs, but why own them when i cant run them? <br /> <br /> As for not making it so you cant see the dogs in the trial alredy im not sure of that one eather. Its not a bad thing to check out the competition before you enter, its acculy very very commen people do it ALL the time in real life and in games. I can see the point of it, but only afterwords if you can see what dogs you ran agest. (i like looking at the "monster dogs" in the trials) after the trial is over. Its a good way to find breeding partners.

01-21-2012 at 9:18 PM

I don't see how the current trial system addresses the issue of grand champions going against rookies. With how things are now, grand champions get to their high levels at the expense of (usually) *much* lower TP dogs. How is that a challenge or real competition in any way?<br /> <br /> If TP ranges were put in to place, the topmost tier doesn't have to be an 8,000+ one. You could have a 4,000+ one be the highest and there would still most likely be enough dogs to trial against (that is an example... I don't personally know how many dogs fall into that range). All that would really need to be done is to take a look at where the bulk of dogs sit TP-wise and then make the ranges in accordance to those numbers. Very high TP dogs would still have others to compete against if the ranges were established correctly, and lower TP dogs would be able to run without getting stomped into the ground mercilessly.<br /> <br /> Like I said before-- some of us very much enjoy playing with low TP dogs. It doesn't mean that we lack a work ethic. In a lot of ways, it's harder to win with lower TP dogs (more fun if you ask me), but it's impossible when they are being forced to run against monster dogs. The lack of a chance makes it not fun.<br /> <br /> The only capped dogs I really know of are huskies and GSDs. I don't care much for either breed. I like borzoi. I breed borzoi. I trial borzoi. I don't want a monster dog that is husky or GSD, but I'd still like to be included in being able to trial. It doesn't mean that I want something handed to me or that I don't want to work for something. I just want the breed that I enjoy to still be viable in trials -- which means leveling the playing field so that they aren't trounced by dogs that are much more popular on the site (and frequently have higher TPs because more people are breeding them).<br /> <br /> In a way, a lot of the options that are being presented to reduce inflation are doing so by making it harder to trial and harder to win. I don't know if this is intended. If it is, the idea of 'you are winning trials too much and we want you to win them less' needs to be addressed in this discussion too.<br /> <br /> I'm also in favor of making it so that you can't see the TP of the dogs you trial against to reduce trial sniping.<br /> <br />

01-21-2012 at 8:45 PM

I completely think that making it so you can't see dogs in a trial would erase this whole hatred for higher TP dogs sniping trials. I still don't agree with making capped dogs only allowed to go against capped dogs - that severely limits them and is unfair to those who worked hard to get capped dogs. I would no longer do lines if capped dogs were basically thrown off into a dark corner because no one wants them to be allowed to compete like other dogs. Really, doing a line of dogs does not pay off at all. It takes way more time and effort to do a line and get a capped dog than that dog will -ever- make back for the owner.<br /> <br /> This is partly the reason why I don't see a problem with trialing the way it is. Magical water bowls are worth way more than a capped dog will ever make. Doing a whole line of dogs, also, is -way- more expensive than that end of line will ever, ever make. I don't think people should be punished for having capped dogs. Whether they bought them or got them themselves... having a waterbowl for said dogs is a huge cost.<br /> <br /> <br /> In real life trials go by levels and dog heights. Will there be dogs in your level that are better than your dog? Most likely. You can't rig it either way. A real life judge would not say "Hey, your dog is too good, you can't go against these other dogs even though they are in the same level as you, sorry!" Eventually said dog will move on and be in a higher level and the dogs that aren't as good as it will once again have success.

01-21-2012 at 7:44 PM

I do like the idea of adding lure coursing as an alternative for lower TP dogs.<br /> <br /> i've gone aroung the site and seen some pretty impressive speed/drive dogs, and yet none of that matters in trials, with lure coursing if your dog doesn't have much drive he'd be less likely to chase the lure, and with less speed they wouldn'y be able to catch it or run faster than the other dogs and win.<br /> <br /> and this way there would be some market for the speed caompanions and items, right now it seems that speed and dive are only their to look good on your dog.<br /><br />EDIT: I do kind of like the idea of having the other dogs in the competition hidden, it would make the trials more interesting(my opinion).

01-21-2012 at 6:34 PM

Kaeli, that is correct. ^^<br /> But it's a little more than that for me personally. It's hard to explain, but mentally it means much for me that they have at least a chance to place in the trials. It's not fun to enter them in trials if you already know they will have no chance to win. Fair play and fair competition between dogs of the same level would be optimal. But it doesn't work that way right now, if I don't build up teams of my own or run teams with someone.<br /> <br /> @Jambers: I don't expect to be handed a win, but I do expect a fair race. Actually now that I think of it, it is the monster dogs that actually get handed that "free win" at the expense of the lower TP dogs. If the monster dogs would compete against each other, the wins wouldn't be so granted for the capped dogs anymore. Funny that the lower TP dogs gets blamed for "getting free wins", when the case is actually the other way around.

01-21-2012 at 5:54 PM

I bought my capped GSD from a friend and used a food bowl on her. I hand trained her from there up, and it took forever. Having done it, though, I'm very happy that I was patient and stuck with it. Now she rewards me by winning trials. I love my trial teams because it means I don't have to enter her into a trial with lower TP dogs - I feel really bad that my capped doggy will automatically beat them. No matter how much work <i>I</i> put into her to max her, I don't think that gives me the right to steal trials out from under people who likely worked just as hard as I did to max their dogs. Having trial teams makes it possible for me to benefit from my capped dog while not ruining the fun for everyone else.

01-21-2012 at 5:25 PM

I need to work harder on my dogs or I don't do enough with my dogs and they don't deserve to win, because someone else have bought a capped dog from another user, used a water bowl on it and then claims that theirs deserve to win because they have worked harder on their dog.<br /> <br /> 1.) i worked to make the 65K<br /> 2.) i didnt water bowl my dog<br /> 3.) i am training my dog<br /> 4.) if i choose to BUY lessons i would have WORKED for that money as well.<br /> <br /> Oh and of all the dogs in my kennel only 4 of them are bought. the rest i took time and effert to breed. <br /> <br /> So go ahad get mad. You want to win? Work for it. Dont expect me to tell you its okay and hand you a win. its not going to happen

01-21-2012 at 5:22 PM

I have the same issue as Casie. My dogs could never win on there own. I only have two trial dogs over 1000 TP. If the dog limit was to be introduced I would have to say that TP increments would be necessary since one of my goals was to have my 200TP JRT get into Toto. She almost made it by trailing against my lower TP dogs. Not one single dog in Odie had a lower TP than her except my own. <br /> <br /> I would have to agree with the limit the amount a dog can trial. Lots of people trial there dogs around 8-12 times a day, for the TP capped dogs that's A LOT of Ala cash. <br /> <br /> The lowering of the age limit I'm kind of not agreeing with for the simple reason that users with large kennels and lots of dogs to train or users with small kennels and not many training sessions, their dogs are not fully trained until they are around 100 months old. That doesn't give much trailing time at all. <br /> <br /> For the other options I am alright with but the payouts for the smaller TP dogs need to be watched so that they are not ridiculously low. The foundies anyways.

01-21-2012 at 5:21 PM

From what I understand, Valorium, you work on improving TP through trialing before you breed the next generation? Sans teams, you would be OK, even if you lost every race. Dogs will gain TP no matter if they win or lose a trial.

01-21-2012 at 4:44 PM

I am sad to see that the option number one is so popular. Half of the fun I personally get on this site is to make customs, trial with them and slowly breed upwards, and on the way to higher TP trial with each generation I get. If I couldn't run them in teams they would never "accomplish" anything and I would get frustrated and stop breeding altogether. I don't enjoy "speed breeding" myself, where immediately when a dog is maxed it is bred and so on. I enjoy each generation I produce by hand train them, trial them to a certain level and let the rats and companions do their work and then breed them when I feel I'm ready for the next generation. I don't understand how the teams that I run is away from anyone else and I don't make that much money out of it either, but enough that I do fairly well on this site. I do not have a lot of extra cash to use carelessly on stuff, I still need to plan what I purchase. I don't even trial because of the money, I trial my dogs because I think it's fun. And to get those wins for my customs and gen 2's makes me feel "better" about them, and I can proudly breed them knowing that I've done everything I can with them so they will produce even better offspring.<br /> <br /> Without teams they would never win anything and that wouldn't encourage me to trial at all. I breed indeed towards better TP, eventually, and every generation is of course better than the last one, but as said I want my dogs to be more than just breeding machines and sold/retired after they have had their litters. Trialing is part of that fun.<br /> <br /> If I can't run teams with my dogs (or trial against others of the same level), I sure won't trial anymore, and if I can't trial, I don't see the point in making new customs anymore, as the breeding alone doesn't appeal to me. And if I can't make customs and enjoy the site.. well there is so little left to do for me here after that.<br /> <br /> There must be some other ways to work this out, other than ban teams. Personally, I would trial even if they didn't pay out anything at all, so long as I would be able to run my teams. Or if teams are an absolute disaster for the site, it should somehow be at least fair play between the trialing dogs. It's insane to have a foundation/custom trial against a capped dog. <br /> <br /> I think everyone should have the right to enjoy this game and have a chance to trial (and win)<br /> even if they don't own a capped dog. Yes, it should be encouraged to breed for better dogs, but there should be some other ways to encourage people to breed for better TP than limit the trials so that you can only win with monster dogs.<br /> <br /> Even if I don't have any capped dogs (yet) doesn't mean I don't work hard on my dogs. I would feel insulted if someone said to me that I need to work harder on my dogs or I don't do enough with my dogs and they don't deserve to win, because someone else have bought a capped dog from another user, used a water bowl on it and then claims that theirs deserve to win because they have worked harder on their dog. The hard work is done when you breed your own dogs generation by generation until you reach the cap, not by buying them. I really admire every breeder that have reached the cap with their breeding, I know it is not easy and they sure need to be rewarded for their work, but stomping those who are slower on breeding and still building their own lines by downplay their dogs is not the right way to go with.<br /> <br /> I don't know if this wall of text made any sense at all, just wanted to express my own feelings and bring my view on the matter out of desperation for the future of my breeding. xD<br /> <br />

01-21-2012 at 4:15 PM

The issue with increments is it'll make it so trials don't get full very easily and therefore a lot of trials are going to not run. Plus, people could just get dogs with the exact number to fit at the top of that particular tier and why not just get tons of dogs like that instead of getting higher TP dogs? <br /> <br /> I don't think a tier system would be the greatest idea. If one were to be implemented, aside from getting a higher trial prize, it'd almost be better to just train up tons and tons of dogs fitting just inside a level so they can win all the time.

01-21-2012 at 4:13 PM

"So, I'm still sticking behind my trialing based on TP ranges. Why would you run a grand champion against a couple of rookies? That's not even real competition."<br /> <br /> The current tier system addresses this. <br /> <br /> As far as the other concerns you (and many others) voice here, I'm not sure if the spirit of competition is really being embraced. I really feel that removing the possibility of "trial teams" is the way to go here because it makes trialing a part of the game as opposed to a money mill. <br /> <br /> Another concern that I'm hearing a lot about is a fear about shop items becoming impossible to buy due to their high prices. If it is warranted, we will happily adjust the dollar to Bone ratio back down, but this is all based on the free market. At this point, with inflation left unchecked, we would actually need to increase shop prices yet again to keep up with the game, as Bones are currently being sold between $50k and $100k each. This is the last thing we want to do, so instead of putting up with inflation and allowing it to happen, we need to approach it from a different angle. <br /> <br /> I would also like to say that if whatever fix is chosen does not work, nothing is permanent. We can always go back to the way it was before and be out only the time we spent testing a new system. <br /> <br /> The bottom line is this: yes, you will make less money. However, if the economy can be stabilized and the free market Bone conversion ratio can be put in check, we will have the opportunity to lower prices so that things are still obtainable.

01-21-2012 at 3:58 PM

I think #1 along with putting an option on trials to limit TP would be nice.

01-21-2012 at 3:53 PM

I think the two dogs per person rule would be fine if there were tp increments in trials. Like a 0-150, 151-300, etc etc etc not neccessarily those exact increments of course though. That way lower tp dogs like my 400-800 tps arent constantly beaten by capped dog after capped dog. Mine cant win alone in toto level, and even odie is difficult.