10-13-2011 at 11:19 AM

Lwax, your "newer studies" are actually still using mirrors, just looking for a myriad of behaviors instead of only grooming behaviors. As I said before, I find that the mirror test in its classical sense is a flawed test. That is not saying that it's not a great start.

10-13-2011 at 10:48 AM

<i>He knows, for instance, that when he performs a certain command within a very short amount of time that his reward is always greater. As well as this, if he performs a command and doesn't receive anything for it, he looks at me expectantly and patiently waits for his reward.</i><br /> This is classical conditioning and is not evidence of self awareness. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_cognition">This article on animal cognition</a> helps outline the differences between these two things. It's an important distinction. Your dogs use of the mirror in your instance, presuming it was not a miss-perception on your part, would be evidence more of spacial cognition to me than the identity of self. Additionally, I think that the mirror test is deeply flawed, but there are other methods out there.<br /> <br /> <i>By the current definition, I am not self aware either or at least have not been for the first 10 - 15 years or so of my life, maybe longer.</i><br /> Please do show me what definition you are using. Also, please keep in mind that self awareness is NOT a necessary aspect of the human condition. Are there people out there without a concept of self? Absolutely. <br /> <br /> <i>It is simply a human superiority complex that needs to be broken. They will be forced to add more and more species to the exception until they realize they have made fools of themselves. It is kinda sad to see scientists find excuses to admit the obvious. </i><br /> Half of science is ABOUT making a fool of yourself. Discovery is NOT a perfect process. 500 years ago, we knew, without a doubt, that we were at the center of the universe. 100 years ago we knew that we were an "island galaxy" without neighbors. 20 years ago we were certain that the expansion of the universe was slowing down. All of these premises have been disproved, but that is the glory of science. For you to shake your head and declare scientists "fools" is short sighted and, in my opinion, beyond foolish. <br /> <br /> <i>Probably would help to stop thinking from a human perspective. For all the talk on this topic about "awareness" the humans are sadly mostly incapable to view the world from the POV of the animal they are studying.</i><br /> We are human. There is only the human perspective to humans. Any picture you wish to paint from another POV is still told through the human perspective in the end. That is why there are tests developed and observations mulled over to try and understand ultimately human concepts (read: the concept of self awareness) in a non-human vehicle. <br /> <br />

10-13-2011 at 10:47 AM

<a href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=kids-and-animals-who-fail-classic-mirror">Newer studies</a>

10-13-2011 at 10:36 AM

"As a form of intelligence, self-awareness can be an understanding of one's own knowledge, attitudes, and opinions."<br /> <br /> I have spent countless hours training my dog, and I know for a fact that he has an understanding of his knowledge. He knows, for instance, that when he performs a certain command within a very short amount of time that his reward is always greater. As well as this, if he performs a command and doesn't receive anything for it, he looks at me expectantly and patiently waits for his reward.<br /> <br /> That isn't the best example of being "self aware" per se, but how do you explain his behavior in front of mirrors? I decided I was going to test this mirror theory (although in completely uncontrolled circumstances, admittedly) and I placed an object he had never seen before on his back. At first he tried to grab it off of his back with his teeth, but upon realizing that he could not reach the object, his eyes locked with his reflection and he then focused his gaze on the object. He used the mirror to help him see what he was doing as he used his back paws to get the object off of his back. (The object in question was a stuffed animal that I loosely tied around his midsection.)<br /> <br />

10-13-2011 at 10:36 AM

By the current definition, I am not self aware either or at least have not been for the first 10 - 15 years or so of my life, maybe longer. Same would be true for a lot of people on the autism spectrum. Crazy, isn't it? Well, i know I've been SELF aware. Just not necessarily of others. I'm sure it is the same for most other species on the planet. <br /> <br /> It is simply a human superiority complex that needs to be broken. They will be forced to add more and more species to the exception until they realize they have made fools of themselves. It is kinda sad to see scientists find excuses to admit the obvious. <br /> <br /> As said in chat, all but one of our cats recognize themselves in the mirror, one checks his behind for cat litter remains in it and one at least uses it to lay traps for another cat on a regular basis. <br /> <br /> Probably would help to stop thinking from a human perspective. For all the talk on this topic about "awareness" the humans are sadly mostly incapable to view the world from the POV of the animal they are studying.

10-13-2011 at 10:27 AM

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness#In_animals">This article</a> is a great introduction to the problem of self awareness. It also lists animals which we believe via study to have an abstract concept of self (Bottlenose Dolphins, Elephants, some Apes, and apparently Magpies). <br /> <br /> I personally hold the same view as the scientific community at large. I do not believe that the majority of animals are self aware <i>in an abstract sense</i>. Do I think animals have the capacity to recognize themselves as an agent in an environment? Sure, simplistically, it's hard to deny. But do they possess the true abstract concept of self necessary for self awareness? I don't believe so, no.